Breeding Red Cover F1

Tips, tricks, and questions about breeding discus.
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moltrup32
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Real Name: Jesper Moltrup
Location: Kelstrupskov Denmark

Re: Breeding Red Cover F1

Post by moltrup32 » 13 Aug 2008, 01:45

Andrew, can you try to explain why you think I should have red cover offspring. I understand Mendels theori. Is that the one you use here. Dominant, resessive gene? I do and I dont get it eighter :blush3: Or is it possible that they could have shown the stressbars earlier on, and that they faded out as they grow older, and because of that all offspring have the stressbar.

Boris I love my pair :heart5: . They take really good care of their ofspring, and they still look stunning, no doubt about that. But the genetiks I dont get, and it bothers me :confus1: Now I know what to keep and cross, but it still dosnt make sence to me, I want to learn more about genetics :shock: . Please Andrew share your knowlegde :2tubsup: And everyone else by the way :blush3:

One more pic. of the male just after I recieved it, and just to confirm that this is the parents, a picture with parents and fry...
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Andrew Soh
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Re: Breeding Red Cover F1

Post by Andrew Soh » 13 Aug 2008, 05:15

Hello guys,

Just by judging from the two photographs on page 5 (this page), one from you and the other is from Wayne himself, it is obvious that the first photo of your pair shows black rim around the dorsal and the anal fins. And you can see that the fish in the second photo which is from Wayne doesn't have black rim and is totally clean. This is a genetic trait and it tells a story.

The pair in the first photo of this page do look like strong pigeon based and therefore producing most pigeon offspring is not surprising. Also looking at the caudal fin of both the parents, it is obviously dark and peppered....a sign of pigeon gene though an overall view tells a brown gene deposition in them.

But from the second photo of Wayne's RC, the caudal fin is clean and clear (transparent)....and so are the dorsal fin and the anal fin without black rim and very clean....depicting that this discus has be carefully selected and genetically has moved further away from the pigeon (though basically having pigeon blood for the red).

Some people use golden gene in creating the Red Cover, but whichever the route one takes, you can produce Red-cover looking discus.......but are they of clean quality?

I attached a photo of 5cm size F2 fry for your perusal. They come from a cross between Pigeon + golden and then the F1 crossed with Red Melon. Can you see the two different types? One with peppering and the other absolutely clean? If I am selling, I will sell the best and the peppering ....give away. But commercial breeders might sell both under the same name...have to survive.....and they are not wrong....as both went through the same route of crossing and are siblings.

Pictures will eb attached in the next post.

Andrew
'Discus, Problems and Solutions'
'Discus, The Naked Truth'
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Andrew Soh
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Re: Breeding Red Cover F1

Post by Andrew Soh » 13 Aug 2008, 05:46

As you can see from the following photos, some are perfectly clean while others with peppering...even on the nostril. I would give away the peppering ones and sell those the are perfectly clean on the caudual fin(with no black bar on the peduncle) and without a single peppering on any part of the body as 'Red Golden Diamond'?

You can see that those clean ones don't even have a rim on the dorsal or anal fins. Beautiful?

Mendel is not always right.......
Mendel only enlighten us on the plus and minus of arithmetic...thus in genetics....the dominant and the recessive. But there are many theorys and principles involved with producing a specific phenotype....and Mendel's law work with limitation.

Your pair needs to cross back with their parents or with another brown discus...because the pigeon gene in the parent is too overwhelming and needs injection of more brown to overcome pigeon's expression.....and is extension of Mendel's law. Mendel may not have produced papers on genetics if he was working with discus at that time..... :garv: :garv: :garv:

Hope you understand :hura3:

Andrew :2tubsup:
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NADI
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Re: Breeding Red Cover F1

Post by NADI » 13 Aug 2008, 07:26

So wrong Andrew, the RC will show the blue rim when breeding.
The secont pic. is the same discus, just no breeding.
The secont pic. is not at Wayne farm, it´s in Molstrup tank here in Denmark.
So they are the same discus, your stayment is wery wrong in thise case.

Because your are saying that Wayne´s RC are pigeon base. :wink:

You can´t always tell by looking at pic. my freind.
It´s not only Mendel that is not always rigth, it´s also you.

Andrew Soh
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Re: Breeding Red Cover F1

Post by Andrew Soh » 13 Aug 2008, 08:40

So wrong Andrew, the RC will show the blue rim when breeding.
The secont pic. is the same discus, just no breeding.
The secont pic. is not at Wayne farm, it´s in Molstrup tank here in Denmark.
So they are the same discus, your stayment is wery wrong in thise case.
.......if you say so Nadi :dontknow: , so what do you think Red Cover genetics are made of?

I have seen varying quality of Red Covers in one shipment..... :dontknow:
It´s not only Mendel that is not always rigth, it´s also you.
....of course I am not always right :garv:

So. Nadi, do you think pigeon blood was used to create Red Cover? :grin:

Andrew :hura3:
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'Discus, The Naked Truth'
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stanchung
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Re: Breeding Red Cover F1

Post by stanchung » 13 Aug 2008, 09:56

Hi Andrew,
If I read correctly, NADI means he doesn't think Wayne's RC are pigeon base as per your assumption.

As far as I know, there's a little pigeon in the modern bred red fishes. Though those that show it are removed when sold.
stan
http://www.discus.com.my > timbalan administrasi dxk :D

Andrew Soh
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Re: Breeding Red Cover F1

Post by Andrew Soh » 13 Aug 2008, 11:08

Stan,

Your avatar picture is a very good specimen :2tubsup:

Yes you are right and I just wish to know whether pigeon gene was once used in the systematic creation of the Wayne's RC or what are the strains involved?

I also wish to be enlighten. :wink:

Now, I don't know who is Wayne.....is he the Wayne from Hong Kong? If he is not, I don't want to talk about him. My apology if I sounded insulting.

Take care,
Andrew :hura3:
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'Discus, The Naked Truth'
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moltrup32
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Real Name: Jesper Moltrup
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Re: Breeding Red Cover F1

Post by moltrup32 » 14 Aug 2008, 00:11

Andrew Soh wrote:Stan,

Your avatar picture is a very good specimen :2tubsup:

Yes you are right and I just wish to know whether pigeon gene was once used in the systematic creation of the Wayne's RC or what are the strains involved?

I also wish to be enlighten. :wink:

Now, I don't know who is Wayne.....is he the Wayne from Hong Kong? If he is not, I don't want to talk about him. My apology if I sounded insulting.

Take care,
Andrew :hura3:
Wayne is the one from Hong Kong :wink:

NADI is right about this pair. It is the same fish (male and female) in all the fotos of the parents, and they are all taken in my place. I bought them for a lot of money (At least for me :lol: ), and this pair is the only red cover pair I have ever owned. So NADI is also right about the dark rim shoving when they breed. That is not wery interesting for me, I already know :wink: What is interesting is the confusion to why I shold breed the F1 with the parents, and get red cover offspring, when it doesnt give any breeding the parents. But I can see it is not just me who cant figure it out.

I am not saying Mendel is right, thas is just how far I got in genetics in high school :lol: :lol:

Maybe I shuld just get started, the F1 offspring is beginning to show signs of pairing out, for the first time yesterday evening :hura3:

I am not sure whether they are pigeon based, maybe maybe not, but if you look at the first photos I posted, that is their normal not breeding colors, I dont see any pepper/duss. I do see dust on the F1s. Or at least the ghost and red ghosts, not the brown type. But not pigeon pepper...

Keep the theories coming, maybe we will one day have the answer :2tubsup:

moltrup32
Posts: 49
Joined: 08 Jan 2008, 02:52
Real Name: Jesper Moltrup
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Re: Breeding Red Cover F1

Post by moltrup32 » 14 Aug 2008, 00:27

By the way Andrew, love your Red Golden Diamond :heart5:

Andrew Soh
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Re: Breeding Red Cover F1

Post by Andrew Soh » 14 Aug 2008, 03:28

So both you and Nadi are referring to Wayne of Hong Kong......hey he is my good friend and he breeds good fishes...discus I mean. :heart5:

And since you said that all the pictures posted by you of the adult Red Cover are the same, then the different in picture quality must have deceived me and caused me to think otherwise.
What is interesting is the confusion to why I shold breed the F1 with the parents, and get red cover offspring, when it doesnt give any breeding the parents. But I can see it is not just me who cant figure it out.
The genetic principles of discus phenotypic expression is not only Mendel's dominant and recessive relationship. There are many reasons for what is happening to your result. One governing principle is that the discus skin colour and pattern are controlled collectively by genes from multple loci, not a final expression just from the interaction between Dominant and recessive at one locus as Mendel thought. That is why we get slightly darker shade or lighter shade among the siblings and also slight red or slightly pale among them. The involvement of numerous loci is known as Polygenic trait or Quantitative trait.

NOw, please....before I proceed to tell another reason, I wish to state that I am not talking or referring to your discus nor Nadi's or Wayne's. Put personal comments aside.

There is such a thing as overrule. During the process of crossing and due to the discus strains used, certain phenotypic traits are suppressed ....like the stress bars or certain colour. And when the right condition and the correct pair crosses, the allele for stress bars suddenly 'talk louder' during recombination and overwhelmly express its trait.

Just to look at other cross.....Blue discus is considered 'Dominant' by the general enthusiasts, and so is 'Pigeon'. When I first crossed a Pigeon with a homozygous Blue discus (P generation) back in 1991, all the offspring (F1 generation) were all dirty looking turquoise with permanent, non retractable stress bars and peppering on the surface (the stress bars never disappear for even a moment). And funny thing is that there were no red pigeon looking in the F1!!! Only in F2 did I start getting pigeon blood back (and was a high percent of pigeon in F2). That was the experience of Jack Watley too. And after cross the pigeon he got from Thailand and crossed with his own Blue discus, the resulting offspring were the same as mine and he started selling them under the commercial name as 'Panda'

So there are many genetic principles governing the phentypic expression of discus..... :2tubsup:

Andrew :hura3:
'Discus, Problems and Solutions'
'Discus, The Naked Truth'
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