Disease of this fish (picture included)?

kanotisten
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Disease of this fish (picture included)?

Post by kanotisten » 18 Mar 2008, 21:19

I am a bit sad, first time I had to help a discus out of it's misery. Suddenly this infection(?) broke out over the fishes body and the fish was keeping to the top corners of the aquarium. I quaranteened it, but today it was just laying down on the bottom of the quarantine tank breathing slowly.

All the other fish are healthy as can be, but I wold still like to find out what disease this was.

[thumbnail]http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/3019/sickhibz2.jpg[/thumbnail]
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christinag
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Re: Disease of this fish (picture included)?

Post by christinag » 19 Mar 2008, 02:28

Hi kanotisten!

This looks like necrotic patches, due to a bacterial infection. Most common are Aeromonas or Pseudomonas, but others can occur also. I can´t really be sure any available medication from the zooshops are sufficient. Most likely, an antibiotic from a vet would be more effective (Penicillin, Ampicillin or something with Quinolones). But if you don´t want to go to a vet, you could try some medicine that contains Nifurpirinol. Most likely this medicine will help only in the initial stage of the infection, though. You should also keep the bacterial concentration in the tank at the lowest possible level. Do as many waterchanges as possible, that will help combat the infection of the reminding fish.

You should also try to figure out, what caused the outbreak of the infection. Perhaps stress or stress due to suboptimal waterconditions, etc.

Greetings from
Christina G
Jag är inte en komplett idiot, det fattas några delar

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Dougall Stewart
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Re: Disease of this fish (picture included)?

Post by Dougall Stewart » 20 Mar 2008, 01:36

Agreed, how are the other fish doing?
All the best Dougall

Andrew Soh
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Re: Disease of this fish (picture included)?

Post by Andrew Soh » 20 Mar 2008, 06:50

Yes....bacteria is involved but so will protozoan....the like of Spiro and costia.

If it it mainly bacteria....whether it is aeromonas (hydrophila) or pseudomonas...they are basically oppotunistic unless a situation triggers their rapid proliferation and cause them to be extremely pathogenic/virulence. If that is the case, there is always a symptom...like ulcer and /or inflamated area. Dropping off the scales in patches and not one scale at a time is usually the work of costia plus the ever-friendly and busybody spiro working into the lateral lines.

You can see in your fish that most of the patches are concentrated along the lateral line with less patches outside.

I have written something one this on page 147. With the state your discus is in...the main culprit now is bacteria, a pathway led by costia. It is not hard to treat.

Try this:

Acriflavine....long bath for a month...in treatment dose concentration....follow LFS product instruction....this is to get rid of costia.

Add normal salt....long bath....@ 200gm per 100 litre of water....that will give you 2ppt. Before the soak, try to well-rub salt on the affected area for 20 seconds before putting into soak.

Lower the pH slowly ...1 drop in point per day....so assuming it is now 7.5....drop it down slowly within a day to 6.5 and tomorrow....slowly drop it down to 5.5 and maintain always at 5.5. till the discus recovers.

Add an antibiotic that you have not used before on that fish...best not to be too stressful antibiotics like tetracycline. Use Kanamycin or erythromycin. Treatment should last 12 days with 4 days WC and redose. :2tubsup:

Try and let me know the outcome. :2tubsup:

Take care,
Andrew :hura3:
'Discus, Problems and Solutions'
'Discus, The Naked Truth'
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christinag
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Re: Disease of this fish (picture included)?

Post by christinag » 20 Mar 2008, 22:43

You´re right Andrew, Acriflavinchloride might help. I didn´t think of that one first. In fact, that is a very good choice. This is also relatively easy to buy in Sweden. Look at the shelf for the pond-products! Note: Dont use the dosage mentioned for pond-use, its different and wouldn´t do any good in an aquarium. You would have to re-calculate it.

Also worth mentioning:
Many plants don´t like Acriflavine/Trypaflavine, remove them from the tank first. And also remove all snails, that you wish to keep. And if there are trapdoorsnails (in Swedisch: tornsnäckor tex) then they will close up and after about two-three weeks of rotting inside, the snaildoor loosens up and the dissolved snailbodies will start ruining the water quality for the already weakened fish. Take care!

I presume the fish in the picture is dead already. It would not be such a bad idea to keep a close look at the remaining fish from the same tank. Perhaps a real palpable checkup of each fish? Checking the slime or other stuff on the skin is what I would do with such an expensive fish.

Greetings from Christina G
Jag är inte en komplett idiot, det fattas några delar

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Re: Disease of this fish (picture included)?

Post by Andrew Soh » 22 Mar 2008, 04:10

Yes, Christina :wink1:

In fish...we should work from outside in ....so solve the ectoparasites and then the endoparasites.

But since this is dislodging of chunks scales....it is only my observation that costia (flagellate) is involved and usually, but not 100%, accompanied by Spironucleosis.....so acriflavine is a good choice and followed or concurrently with metronidazole (would be better) plus an antibiotic as suggested ealier.......not forgetting common salt as all injured or wounded fishes leach salt (Dehydration).

A concoction of antibiotics is good....like metro and Kana...because they are bound to be secondary infection...so don't wait till the discus is serious infected before adding.....'Prevention is better than cure....and curing discus is a nightmare'.

In my ealier post, I did not mention about metronidazole....sorry...I took it for granted....and though everyone knows....

Take care
Andrew
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'Discus, The Naked Truth'
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kanotisten
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Re: Disease of this fish (picture included)?

Post by kanotisten » 23 Mar 2008, 21:46

I have Sera Bactopur at home, it contains Acriflavine. Is the concentration satisfactory? 209,7mg per 100ml.

Since the discus are in my community tank I am thinking of removing the discs to a 30 gallon tank where I can medicate sufficiently.

tank.jpg
This last week I have been doing 15% water changes every day. Most of my fish look fine, there are 2 discs that are showing signs of weakening (darkened colour, and they are shyer) - but nothing that except for that yet

The only fish that present any symptoms are my Ramirezi that breath very heavily.

So medicate the whole tank, or have a seperate tank for medication?

edit: I forgot to mention that the PH is 6.3 and the temperature is 29,5-30,5 celcius.
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kanotisten
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Re: Disease of this fish (picture included)?

Post by kanotisten » 23 Mar 2008, 22:55

By the way, I am a bit confused by the dosage recommendations from Sera Bactopur. On the 50ml bottle it says that it is good for 800 liters.

But the dosage is 1 ml per 20 liter, which in my book is 20 ml per 400 liter. Add to this that this is a 3 day cure, with 2 times that dosage. For me this means that one 50ml bottle only is good for 400 liters, and not 800 liters

So how much should I add? 20 ml for 400 liters - which means half the bottle on day 1, and te other half on day 3.

It's a bit confusing...

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Re: Disease of this fish (picture included)?

Post by Matte_g » 23 Mar 2008, 23:03

Add the ful dose day one day 3 change 50% water then half the first dose isn't that the way they mean??

kanotisten
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Re: Disease of this fish (picture included)?

Post by kanotisten » 23 Mar 2008, 23:08

Matte_g wrote:Add the ful dose day one day 3 change 50% water then half the first dose isn't that the way they mean??

I'll write exactly as the informationpamphlet says:

Day 1: 22 drops or 1 ml per each 20 liters
Day 2: no treatment
Day 3: 22 drops or 1 ml per each 20 liters

that means 20 ml on day 1, and 20 ml on day 3.


So I guess the "for 800 liters" that it says on the package is misleading/false advertisment because the 50 ml bottle is only good for treating a 400 liter aquarium.

So I guess I'll add almost half the bottle today (20 ml) and then the other half on tuesday night.

As I said, a bit misleading that they write that a bottle is good for 800 liters, when it's actually for 400 liter aquariums.

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